Monero Dev Meeting Note Highlights – 2017-07-09
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fluffypony1. Greetings
fluffypony2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
fluffypony3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
fluffypony4. Reimagining the FFS (discussion)
fluffypony5. Any additional meeting items
fluffypony6. Confirm next meeting date/time
fluffyponygoing to skip 1 because I think we're all mostly here
fluffypony2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
fluffyponyloads of stuff, lots of PRs in process and getting close to merge
fluffyponyand then the new website of course
fluffypony3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
fluffyponyso I'd like to just have a quick step through some PRs that are still in the wings
hycbeen getting deluged by readline and new sync commits
fluffypony#1936: any input?
moneromoooIt's marked as do not merge, so I've not looked in ages. Not sure whether revler's still around.
hycHe commented 9 days ago to close it in favor of #2055
pero^
fluffyponyoh I missed that
fluffyponythanks hyc
dEBRUYNEWhich is merged already :-P
hyceven better ;)
niocmoneromooo: yes revler is still around
fluffyponyok - 2023 is waiting until after the Sept fork, right?
moneromoooYes.
fluffyponyok
fluffypony#2044: tewinget, there are pending comments
fluffyponymaybe we can get this merged sometime in the next century
dEBRUYNEtewinget commented on that here fwiw
dEBRUYNE<tewinget> dternyak: seems reasonable. it'd have to be on a case-by-case basis as some other things are ramping up to keep me a little busier, but for now I plan to have all the suggestions / notes from moneromooo addressed by the end of today.
moneromoooWhat concerns me is that there were misc commits adding/changing RPC, and some of the stuff (ie, getinfo) is kinda reverting those.
niocfluffypony: tewinget said he would deal with it by the end of the day
moneromoooIt might be a pita to go through everything to check all is ported.
fluffyponymoneromooo: we'll run both JSON RPC and 0MQ in parallel for the moment anyway
fluffyponyso that should reveal it
fluffypony#2056: needs to be backed up by a final MRL write-up
fluffyponywhich I believe is WIP
fluffyponykenshi84: ^^
knaccci.e. 2056 should not be merged prior to an MRL being published?
jollymortspeaking of which, wouldn't it be simpler to c&p the write-up from #2056 into a .md file?
jollymorti mean, it's all there; but not in fancy TEX format
fluffypony@jollymort nobody wants to review it unless it's in fancy TeX :-P
hycphototypesetter-ready copy or go home
fluffyponylol
fluffyponyok everything else is still WIP
hycIs this a good time to mention, https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/85 still hasn't gotten much feedback
hycwhich is a bit surprising, considering the intensity of the IRC chat
ArticMineYes this needs feedback
ArticMineProject licensing
moneromoooThose can get merged: 2126 2131 2132 2133 (if diff agrees) 2135 2140 2142
moneromoooSome newer ones are also simple, but too new I guess.
fluffyponymoneromooo: tks
fluffyponyhyc: cross-post it to Reddit maybe?
moneromooo2138 too if someone is qualified to review (I am not).
fluffyponyok
hychmm. reluctant to face the low signal-to-noise ratio on reddit with that ticket, but perhaps that's the only way to get eyes on it
fluffyponyanything else on this or can we move ahead?
moneromoooI'd like to get guinea pigs for https://github.com/moneromooo-monero/bitmonero/tree/sync :)
moneromoooIt's mostly working fine (pending iDunk's latest test).
iDunk…ahem…
moneromooo:/
fluffyponylol
moneromoooWell, maybe later.
hycwould be nice to include a script to monitor network stats
vtnerdmoneromooo : I have a review in progress of that branch that I hope to get out
iDunkenvisions more #2149 commits :)
moneromoooAh, I've got to squash before it's reviewable.
hycand quantify difference in bandwidth usage
vtnerdah so its not reviewable?
vtnerdoh you mean squash the commit history
hycthe commit msgs are all so enlightening so far ;)
moneromoooWell, if you look at the diff itself, it should be. But it's a lot of shitty commits atm.
moneromooohyc: there's a new sync_info command which kinda does that.
hycoh, cool
hycbut you'd also need that cmd in a before- patch, for comparison
mattcodecan we frame the commit messages from #2149 and put them in a gallery?
moneromoooAh, it doesn't really apply before the patch. I expect people would just time a sync before and after.
hyc:D
hycI think we could just grab ifconfig stats or something instead.
hycbut whatever
moneromoooI used iftop.
moneromoooA bit handwavy though.
moneromoooBut at some point after startup, it's the CPU that's the bottleneck.
peronethogs does it per process
hycok. that's a good position to be in then.
fluffyponyok
fluffyponymoving on?
iDunkDamn monero users. It would sync in no time if only there weren't any transactions.
hycWho is familiar with Docker to review #2138?
hycobviously I've already done those steps manually, to build Android binaries.
pigeonsI'll take a look, but I find new docker oddities and workarounds daily
hyccool
tewingetoh dear, late. sorry about that.
hycok I guess that's it for open tickets
tewingeton my laptop; idk if I ever checked if I got my irc set up right on here; hyc ACK if you see this.
hyctewinget yes?
tewingetkk
fluffyponyok
fluffypony4. Reimagining the FFS (discussion)
moneromoooSo… moving on… luigi1111, any news about N-1/N multisig theory ? :)
moneromooonevermind
fluffyponyso
fluffyponythe FFS has worked fine the last few years, but we need to formalise some of the processes
fluffyponyfor eg. what do we do with over-funding? currently we put it into the general fund and then use that for future FFS proposals
fluffyponybut I'm open to suggestions
rehrarI wrote something up for it, and it had mixed feedback. https://github.com/rehrar/meta/tree/master/FFS
rehrarA good deal of feedback said it was too formal, and in the Terms the Conclusion should go at the top as an Intro instead, but yeah. Any feedback is welcome. :)
moneromoooMaybe there could be a running "monero core team" ffs, with <pinky up> 1 million monero limit…
hycdoes that mean the next FFS proposal that gets submitted automatically gets a head start?
fluffyponyhyc: we give every FFS proposals a head start anyway
hycok
fluffyponyalso pero had some thoughts
fluffyponyiirc on time frames and so on
perohmmm yea i could look at this
perotimeframes and scope i'd like to see more detailed in my SOWs than i have seen so far in the FFSs
tewingetruns and hides
pero;)
peroit's really hard to manage work if these things arent defined
peroand mediation/dispute resolution is impossible
perowhat i was thinking really was to have some sort of template for prospective fundraisers
gkrujamaybe have 2 week sprints where the devs report there work so people know thats its being worked on actively even though the time frame is pushed back due to difficulties that could come up?
tewinget"sprints" …
pero-_-
moneromoooYou run if you want dude. I'm coding.
tewingetgkruja, other than the term "sprints" which has a bit of a negative connotation from what I can tell, that doesn't seem like a bad idea.
peromaybe 2 weeks isnt that bad to have it coincide with the dev meetings - but not all FFS work is dev wwork
peroyea precisely tewinget
fluffyponymilestones are the reporting periods
mattcodeThe Monero Enterprise Alliance needs to promote agility in the workplace, so we should all sprint every two weeks.
fluffyponymattcode: hence the creation of MEAT
tewingetwe know how fluffypony loves his MEAT.
perowell i typically insert checkpoints before milestones in projects
fluffyponythe problem with milestones is that they aren't always backed up by timeframes
peroso i know if my milestones arent going to be hit
peroand something can be actively done about it
fluffyponypero: that might work, but might also be too formal, we need to balance it with it being accessible to part-time contributors
hycand what are our choices of things that can be done about it? Should we have a list of those spelled out?
perousually solutions arent that clear cut ;p
peromight just be a matter of documenting a pattern of missed deadlines
gkrujathe progress updates could be determined on a per project basis
endogenicbetter would be to list potential problems
endogenicanswers w/o the problems are sure not to match
tewingetruns and hides again
pero;p
rehrarIn my write up, the contract that was funded is the active contract, and if a change needs to be made for reasons then it needs to be brought before the community where the reasons for change and the proposed changes are brought up, and the community can decide whether it is acceptable or not.
fluffyponyrehrar: but then where's the forum for that? the dev meetings?
rehrarOr community meeting
rehrarWhichever is more appropriate
rehrarDev meeting for coding things, community for non-coders things
perowell the missed deadline example is from 'real world' tewinget … usually you need a documented pattern like that if you want to sever a contract and fire someone
perobring on a new resource/vendor
fluffyponyyeah true, I think the dev workgroup is better suited to analysing whether something is acceptable or not
rehrarAnd as long as it's announced that a decision will be made in the upcoming meeting well beforehand, there should be no complaints that someone wasn't able to be present to vote.
endogenicvoting is a tricky concept
moneromoooOTOH, decision ought to be in the hands of the donators for that particular project. Maybe I need to code some voting thing where one can prove they paid to a ffs…
peroanother thing with better defined scope/schedule/budget
rehrarAnd that's a good point Moneromooo, should a person who didn't donate have any sway in the vote?
perois that we can manage what happens when 'contractors' go over budget
perotweinget and rehrar surely went much over what they estimated
endogenici don't think voting should be used, personally, unless it's limited to people who are actually qualified
peroand unhappy resources are poorly performing resources from my experience
rehrarI did?
ArticMineYes but should it be donators overall or donators to a specific FFS?
iDunkWhen I donated to moneromooo's latest FFS, I was late and he was already funded. I donated anyway and wished I had a way to direct the donation to him anyway.
ArticMineI mean we are putting general funds into these
endogenicwe only need to resort to voting in the absence of being able to determine what the problem actually is
endogenicin any given case
rehrarCan we vote via masternode?
endogenicgenius
fluffyponylol
moneromoooI didn't say anything becuse I am this biased, but Alice donating to Bob's clearly shows the intent.
fluffyponysoon™
moneromooo*thus
peroso the FFS should have an ability or mechanism for the contractor to demonstrate a need for increased budget as well
peroand the excess donations can be used partly for this 'contingency fund'
endogenicone problem is that it will be difficult to achieve consensus on what the problem is if some people who are voting have an interest in people not agreeing that such a thing is a problem
rehrarMaybe we can tackle this in Community Meeting too.
endogenicso there needs to be some kind of standard about what is more important - maintaining those interests, or the solution to the actual problems
fluffyponypero: increased budget = new proposal
hycdunno. as I see it, FFS means you pitch a flat rate for a project. Then how you manage your time is your own business, but there's no such thing as a budget overrun
tewingetpero: on that note, I had trouble deciding originally for the zmq thing whether to do hourly milestones or progress milestones. I think requiring both might be a good idea. Either one can be the milestones for payouts, but the other should be tracked for progress as well imo.
tewingetI'm just going off of "what would I do differently".
moneromoooFTR, the kovri meeting is just starting too.
hycah we need to wrap this up then
gkrujaif that's it then i can post my small gallery again for you guys and all the nice people on Reddit to see
gkrujahttp://imgur.com/a/mluUb
moneromoooI'll still be around in an hour :)
moneromooo(to prod luigi, arf arf)
endogenicsee y'all again in 2 weeks?
luigi1111making lunch :-)
tewingetI'll be out cold in like 5 minutes. I'll update sometime tonight (well, tomorrow morning/early afternoon probably for you EU folks – I seem to be on like GMT - 10 as far as sleep goes)
fluffyponyyup
fluffyponytwo weeks™
peroi think for defined deliverables, say like zmq
perojust a scope table would go a long way in making it more manageable
peroscope item | work effort | delivery eta
dternyakmoneromooo: OTOH, decision ought to be in the hands of the donators for that particular project. Maybe I need to code some voting thing where one can prove they paid to a ffs…
dternyakI had a similar though, but then you run the risk of the vender funding a majority of their own FFS so that they could have majority vote on if they are fired.
dternyakthought*
endogenic^
endogenicor any of many other possibilities
moneromoooInteresting point.
hycif they're majority funder of their own project… what's the problem?
endogenicthey could crowd others out, for one
moneromoooBut then it'd be expensive and nobody would pitch in for the rest ?
dternyakthey can steal the other 49% of peoples money by never firing themselves
endogeniceven if they aren't hiring themselves, one group can still fund projects and make the same issue
dternyakyes, there are several flaws
endogenicand as for having people in general vote on stuff… has anyone heard of "bread and circuses?" it's commonly known that people tend to choose what's convenient or what might give them temporary gain even at the expense of future survival
moneromoooOh, anonimal's kovri.i2p mention made me remember a couple people said it'd be nice to have a hidden service (and eepsite) for getmonero.org. Leading by example :)
Sources and notes
- Meeting log: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-07-09, getmonero.org. The official post carried the raw log and pointed readers to Hello Monero for the overview.
- Original Hello Monero URL slug recovered from the Wayback Machine index; the original page content did not survive, so this reconstruction carries the log as archived by the Monero Project.