Monero Dev Meeting Note Highlights – 2017-04-09
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fluffyponyok
fluffypony2. Brief review of what's been completed since the previous meeting
fluffyponyso the main thing was the 0.10.3.1 release
fluffyponywhich has mostly been fine, no major breaking issues
fluffyponythere are some GUI fixes that will go into 0.10.3.2, which we aim to tag and release soon
medusabefore or after the fork ?
fluffyponywhich brings us to
moneromoooThere's this bug with not merging destinations, which is overeager in not merging.
fluffypony3. Code + ticket discussion / Q & A
fluffyponymedusa: probably before, due to the thing that moneromooo just pointed out, which is a bit of an annoyance for exchanges
medusaallright thats good. i think a possible bugfix release after the fork shoudl be completely seperate too
fluffyponymedusa: is there something you're expecting will break at the fork? :-P
medusalets hope nothing is needed <3
medusano
fluffyponyok shew
fluffyponyI'm planning on merging PRs over the next couple of days
fluffyponyare there any that are don't-merge-yet?
vtnerd1112The one I have outstanding for bin2hex
xmr_ericBefore merging the PR to name Monero GUI back to Monero Core, I thought it would be good to have a discussion here about that. But perhaps that can be saved for the end of today's meeting.
moneromoooOh, I'd kinda forgot-ish about that one…
Jaquee#658 and #667 obviously
vtnerd1112It's currently unmergeable and I don't know if anyone looked at it recently
fluffyponyxmr_eric - we can discuss it now, it's part of this section anyway
vtnerd1112monermooo I will revise and push later today
luigi1112is he copying me
vtnerd1112rebase, damn phone
fluffyponyvtnerd1112: I haven't since looking at it the first time, sounds good
endogeniclol
fluffyponyluigi1112: yes
fluffypony/nick fluffypony1112
xmr_ericOk, well I'd like to hear from Jaquee. But my thoughts are that we rename Monero GUI back to Monero Core. Gingeropolous originally named it back to Monero GUI at the time, which was a decent idea, but I think in the end the central Monero software that the public is going to use should be called Core
fluffypony@xmr_eric that was among the reasons for calling it Core initially
xmr_ericI spent some time yesterday trying to find a word other than Core to differentiate ourselves from Bitcoin, like Monero Essentials or something, but none really work as well.
xmr_ericRight. I think we should go back to that.
fluffyponyalso because I think that the current monero repo will become libmonero
peroand then monero-cli?
fluffyponyyeah
peromakes sense
Jaqueeso we end up with 3 repos?
Jaqueegui, cli and lib?
fluffyponyJaquee: yes eventually
Jaqueeok cool
fluffyponyJaquee: what are your thoughts on GUI vs. Core
Jaqueelibwallet API is only used by gui for now. so i'm thining it could be moved to gui repo.
Jaqueei would prefer GUI
endogenichow about 'official' instead of 'core'? cause it'll be specified as the official 'gui', cli etc
xmr_ericThis isn't just naming the repo, this is naming the piece of software the repo produces
bigreddmachineAs for names, I assume "Monero Qt" is out? That was once the standard for cryptocurrency wallets but seems to have lost favor.
xmr_ericEssentially, it is branding
peroif we're going to have lib and cli, and those seems like the optimal nomenclature for those, then i think the logical one for the gui is gui
Jaquee+1
endogenicor maybe core gui..
xmr_ericThe public doesn't think in terms of CLI GUI
xmr_ericPeople won't know what GUI means
Jaqueedo they know what core means?
Jaqueei don't :P
peroyea but core is kind of confusing since core seems to be lib
fluffyponypero: I was thinking more like libmonero, monero-tools, monero-core
bigreddmachinepero: i'd argue the optimal name for a gui should not have "gui" in the name. They aren't called FireFox GUI, Chrome GUI, Word GUI, etc
gingeropolousjust Monero
xmr_ericNo, but the point is Core is a word that people will begin to associate with that piece of software
hrumag2gingeropulos I agree
xmr_ericWhat does Linux mean?
jwintermI think core does have a bit of stench to it now
hycat worst, monero app
hrumag2The application has to be the most atomic
jwintermbigreddmachine: there's no lynx like version of firefox or chrome tho
jwintermthat I'm aware of
hrumag2To the public I mean
xmr_ericThe problem with naming it just Monero is that no other piece of software gets to be called Monero
xmr_ericWhich I'm ok with
peroyes i can see reason in that argument bigreddmachine
hycMoneroUser
xmr_ericBut it isn't good from a nomenclature standpoint
bigreddmachine"Monero Wallet"?
perowhat's monero-tools fluffypony ? the cli?
fluffyponypero: yes
fluffyponyespecially since they ship with the GUI
sgp^ anyone can make their own wallet
moneromoooCould we maybe get on with the dev meeting…
fluffyponyso that seems to make some sense
fluffyponyok let's table this for the next meeting, we can open a thread or discuss it further under an existing one
fluffyponys/thread/issue
xmr_ericGreat
hrumag2At least "Monero node", "Monero wallet cli", "Monero wallet gui"
gingeropolousmoneromooo, I like this bike shed. It can fit many bikes
fluffyponyand then we'll make a decision at the next meeting
Jaqueesounds good
anonimalTwo cents: 2 repos: libmonero and monero. monero has optional cli build alongside gui.
fluffyponyok so 4. GetMonero.org redesign discussion
fluffyponyrehrar wanted to show us the designs and get our input on it
rehrarI don't want to take much time. Just want to get a special opinion from all the devs about the two proposed designs.
rehrarIf you haven't seen them already, you can find them here
rehrarDesign 1: http://imgur.com/a/MwyxX
rehrarDesign 2: http://imgur.com/a/H9i3z
anonimalgithub link too?
unknownidsdesign 1 third draft imo
rehrarThe idea will be to redesign the current website and also to make an assets document that will have the HTML and CSS framework that we make so anyone can easily make more pages.
i2polarkWill these sites still be usable with javascript disabled?
rehrarNo JavaScript will be used.
rehrarAll in Jekyll
rehrarSorry, thank you anonimal
vertpdesign 1 - draft 3 is the most popular on reddit. Most people are asking to add some of the community sponsored youtube vids to the homepage as well.
hrumag21 totally. Marketing addicted
peroim pretty big on the 2nd one
gingeropolouswill these sites still be editable via github by random people, like the current site?
fluffyponydesign 2 is nice, but a little too clean
fluffyponygingeropolous: yes
perothe first one is too generic and reminds me of shitty webapps/startups
perofirst one with some tweaks
peroerm
endogenici agree, maybe some pretty-fication to #2
aerbaxI think it's important to include one of the Monero introductory videos on the frontpage of whatever design is chosen.
perosecond one*
i2polarkOk
endogeniccause it's an OSS / tech project after all
fluffyponyvertp: I don't know if we really need multiple videos on the home page, just the intro one
rehrarI think the second design is the most modular and easy to adapt to others making more pages as the site progresses after I'm done with it.
Jaqueei also prefer #2
sgpAs I mentioned, I still like 1.3 the best. 2 is still better than what we have right now though
anonimalSince no one here will probably read that github issue, #2 looks like a tech spec but #1 can be worked with. If reddit has good response for #1 draft 3 then that direction is something to consider.
fluffyponyendogenic / pero: I'm leaning that way too
tewingetdidn't realize we were doing a meeting this week; I'll be around in like an hour, have to catch a bus.
vertpfluffypony: yes, good point. shouldn't have used the plural tense.
rehrarWe were playing with adding some color to design 2
fluffyponyanonimal: otoh we can take some of the elements from design 1, draft 3 and incorporate them into design 2 - @rehrar?
rehrarAnd I think we have a good idea of how to do it.
rehrarWe should have something for it soon.
rehrarYes, we'll work on that.
perosite should be an information portal ultimately, the first design is getting the user to download an app asap imo
rehrarAny particular things from that design to Port?
peroit is not aligned with what the site's goals should be
gingeropolousi like #2
rehrarI agree.
anonimalSite's goals? It's a website.
peroyes the goal of providing information
rehrarMonero is a unique project, and having a standard site is doing Monero a disservice imo.
fluffypony@rehrar the world background and the different sections are nice
fluffyponybackgrounds for different sections I mean
rehrarI agree that design 2 is a bit sterilized.
anonimalOld people need to be able to use this too. Old people don't like to read most of the time because fonts are too small and if they are computer illiterate they don't know how to zoom.
anonimalTechnical illiteracy = most of planet earth.
xmr_ericWebsites are absolutely about a main goal first. That's what good design is about. Funneling people into a path that they already want to go. Eg "What is this Monero thing?"
perothat argument is pointless anonimal
peroold people that are actively using the internet have learned how to deal with those issues
fluffyponyanonimal: old people aren't going to use Monero, they'll use some L2 or L3 system on top of it
anonimalpero this is a dev meeting, feel free to leave anytime.
anonimalYou are not a dev.
peroelse they wouldnt be using it
perolol
fluffyponyso it's also got to serve the target audience
moneromoooYeah, maybe we could have dev meeting and monero meeting.
rehrarIf the overwhelming majority thinks design 1 even after draft 3 of design 2 then I will probably go with it
fluffyponymoneromooo: this is specifically to get dev input on the design
rehrarBut we're going to add some color to the design 2.
hrumag2I think it should be given more underlining about how to buy Monero. Where do you think to put the link?
rehrarMonero just has very…Specific branding colors. XD
fluffypony@rehrar let's see what you come up with on design 2 and then see
rehrarAight. Will do.
fluffyponyhrumag2: no, definitely not, that sort of funnel makes us liable
hrumag2… more than "get involved" I think
anonimalWhen I say 'old', I mean plebeian elders of planet earth.
rehrarThat's all from me.
rehrarAny last second opinions?
peroi have a concern with project scope/budget
peroi think the work effort is being underestimated and it's underbudgeted
rehrarNot underestimated, but underbudgeted for sure.
fluffypony@rehrar well we do a second FFS if needed, let's see how it goes
rehrarOn purpose. Part of it is my donation to the community. I believe in it.
rehrarOk. :)
fluffyponyok on that note
fluffyponylet's move on to 5. Any additional meeting items
fluffyponyonly thing I want to ask is just to find out from Jaquee if he managed to get hold of Qt
Jaqueeno, sorry. i've had a busy week
moneromoooWell, I had this list of bugs I think can be closed. Which should be greppable with mooo.*bug.*clos
Jaqueewill take care of that issue in a couple of days
fluffyponynp
fluffyponymoneromooo: yep I'll be closing issues in the next few days too
moneromoooThanks.
fluffyponyanything else?
bigreddmachineI have a Q: What is the "correct" way to propose an improvement / protocol change to Monero? Bitcoin has the BIP system, whereas for Monero things are basically handled via GitHub issues in the main repo. That means that, though discussions are documented permanently, they can be difficult to find and track over time. Is Monero getting to where it is big enough and has enough contributors that maybe we s
bigreddmachinehould have a BIP-like process?
fluffyponybigreddmachine: easiest way is just for us to have a label on Github (for consensus-critical changes)
i2polarkI have a few things I would like to talk about regarding https://github.com/monero-project/monero/issues/1673 I should post another update soon
i2polarkI can wait
bigreddmachinefluffypony: but is that the ideal way to do it? after getting merged, closed, etc, those discussions are very tough to find. Something like BIP is a much better long-term place for those discussions
fluffyponybigreddmachine: I think that changes should be written up as an MRL paper
bigreddmachineI'm not asking because I have a specific proposal to make, but because it seems we don't have an ideal system that can grow well
bigreddmachinefluffypony: and submitted to MRL?
fluffyponyyes
fluffyponyavailable permanently as an MRL research bulletin, which makes recommendations to the implementors, and exists as a living document
bigreddmachineokay - then shouldn't that be the case for anything consensus changing?
bigreddmachinewhat got me thinking about it is that the discussions behind this month's hard fork are very tough to find. i know it's a small change, but i feel like we don't have a precedent set
fluffyponybigreddmachine: mostly yes, although I think some things are a little small to write up and might have to be bundled together
fluffyponylet's give that a spin and see how it goes, we can always change the process later on
bigreddmachinewhat makes something "too small" though? I guess my point is that maybe we need to add guidelines to the main repo that explain all this for people to see in the future
fluffyponyolark: do you want to discuss 1673 now? we still have 19 mins before the Kovri meeting
bigreddmachineI am happy to do that and make the PR,
i2polarkSure
i2polarkI just wanted to talk about a couple quick things
fluffyponybigreddmachine: it's subjective - when we changed the block time from 1 min to 2 mins, for eg., the reasons were obvious - yes please do write it up and PR it
i2polarkWhat people think about having 3 static ringsizes for monero similar to how we have static fee priorities.
i2polarkThis was an idea moneromooo had brought up in the issue
sgpWhat ringsizes are you proposing?
i2polarkTo protect users from making foolish mistakes reusing irregular ringsizes
moneromoooI was about to write "I like it", so I now see why I do… :D
fluffyponyolark: I like it because it removes fingerprinting / metadata leaks
i2polarkWell if September is mandatory 4 i was thinking like 4, 12, 50 or something similar the details don't matter at this moment but just what people think about having this in place.
fluffyponyI'm fine with it, but 4 is way too small as the minimum, even per the old MRL recommendations
i2polarkThe other thing was since I have been surveying the bitcoin blockchain for a while there is large bias for spent outputs in the past day
bigreddmachineto clarify - unlike fees, which could be changed on the user-end to something else, this will make non-standard ring sizes be against the consensus protocol?
i2polarkand how this affects the attack in MRL-001
fluffyponybigreddmachine: yes
moneromoooWe could wait to see luigi1112's final ringct sizes, then see how those vary with increasing mixin.
fluffyponymoneromooo: agreed
jwintermwhy only three choices?
fluffyponyjwinterm: so that people actually use the two other than the default
moneromoooTo avoid splitting txes in too many classes.
sgpSo how about 10, 20, 50, 100? Something like that. Pending the research of course
fluffyponyyou want to get lost in the mix, remember :)
vtnerd1112So fireice_uk is working on the rpc download changes before any crypto stuff … ?
i2polarkThe assumption in MRL-001 is that an attacker would need roughly 80% of outputs in the entire blockchain to de-anon a transaction but in reality if we use an output selection algo similar to what my survey results convey than in reality an attacker would only need 70%ish of spent outputs in the past day to reliably de-anon some transactions
vtnerd1112Oops thought that topic was done
sgp^ with what ringsize?
fluffyponyvtnerd1112: yes - we decided in the last meeting that he'd switch milestone orders around
moneromoooOh, that ought to be done on 0MQ then.
i2polarkSmooth and myself had come to a conclusion that mixin 4 is fine but if the attack in MRL-001 is made easier with a selection algo like I am suggesting we may need to increase the mandatory ringsizes to protect against an attack like MRL-001
fluffyponyolark: this changes with zipf, right?
fluffyponyie. a great portion of the ring uses the past day's outputs
vtnerd1112Ok, pigeons told me mymonero seemed to be under lots of load. Ive got some preliminary work done that he could continue to completion
vtnerd1112Just enough to give mymonero a bump hopefully
fluffyponyvtnerd1112: that's fine, maybe ping him and tell him that? fireice_uk never attends dev meetings and is never on IRC
moneromoooMaybe that's not actually bad.
i2polarkWhat to increase it to is up in the air obviously. Still have more work to do
i2polarkfluffypony: Yes. Based on the survey I have done so far roughly 70% of spent outputs are from the past day. Future surveying will be going over 2011-2012 to see if there is any change in the distributions.
fluffyponyok I'm fine with that - olark, what are your thoughts on writing it up as an MRL paper later on once the discussion is finalised?
moneromoooI think current min is still 2. We could go to 4 in september, and still increase later.
sgpI think we should increase it >4 in September
bigreddmachine-olark: is there a way to see what the distribution looks like for txs not related to mining? i'd guess a lot of the quickness in spending is from pools transfering out coins to miners, but in the future this might be a much smaller proportion
xmr_ericAre we still playing around with having a static ringsize?
moneromoooPool payment txes are often with more than 2 outputs.
sgp@xmr_eric yes
xmr_ericCool
fluffyponymoneromooo: with the new range proofs etc. it might be worthwhile just making the min based on that
moneromoooNot a guarantee of course. Especially now -_-
i2polarkfluffypony: Sure I can write an MRL paper once I have more of it fleshed out.
fluffyponycan always use like a 10 output tx as a measuring bar
moneromooofluffypony: sounds good
gingeropolous^ interesting
i2polarkxmr_eric: The idea is having 3 static ringsizes for varying levels of paranoia similar to the different fee priorities we have.
xmr_ericRight
bigreddmachinemoneromooo: if we're just looking for a filter on pool txs, we can always use the pools' apis to get txids. my point was those txs might be 50% of all txs now, but 5% two years from now, which impacts the math.
gingeropolousare disposable / one-time addresses happening? I didn't see it make the list of things not to pull in.
moneromoooThat allows me to…
moneromoooluigi1112: is kenshi84's disposable address patch ready in the theoretical sense, you think ? ie, can I go over it again assuming the math/crypto's final ?
fluffyponyI haven't looked at it in a while, I'll have to re-review the PR to both the MRL and normal repos
fluffyponyok we need to wrap up - let's discuss it further later on
fluffypony6. Confirm next meeting date/time
fluffyponyApril 23
Sources and notes
- Meeting log: Overview and Logs for the Dev Meeting Held on 2017-04-09, getmonero.org. The official post carried the raw log and pointed readers to Hello Monero for the overview.
- Original Hello Monero URL slug recovered from the Wayback Machine index; the original page content did not survive, so this reconstruction carries the log as archived by the Monero Project.